Thursday, December 08, 2005

And the Lord spake unto them...

...saying beat the living cr*p out of anyone who disagrees with you. Compassionate Christianity at work again here. A professor who had been instructed to teach "intelligent design" and rather sensibly thought he should teach it under the heading "mythology" has been introduced to God's love through a beating which left him hospitalised.


staghounds said...

Assuming, of course, that it happened as he says it did. The history of modern "hate crimes" later revealed to be frauds suggests that witholding judgement in these cases is wise.

And what are the other things like burglary and theft- friendly crimes?

Cruella said...

Since there is no law I know of in the US which makes hatred against the non-religious a special crime, it's unlikely the motivation for the attack will ever be debated in court so there's nothing to with-hold judgement for. Even if it were, so what, these guys let O.J. Simpson and Jacko off, their court system is pretty meaningless.

Actually I suspect a lot more crime is "hate crime" than we suspect. I mean why would criminals own up to motivation if it wasn't obvious. There's a hell of a lot of nasty prejudice out there.

The victim sounds to me - based on his teaching - like a smart, sensible guy who wants truth to prevail. So I'm taking his word for it.

Ethan_24 said...

President George W. Bush favors teaching both evolution and "Intelligent Design" in schools, "so people can know what the debate is about." To proponents, Intelligent Design is the notion that the universe is too complex to have developed without a nudge from a higher power than evolution or natural selection.

To detractors, Intelligent Design is creationism - the literal interpretation of the Book of Genesis - in a thin guise, or simply vacuous, about as interesting as "I don't understand," as has always been true in the sciences before understanding is reached. Accordingly, there cannot be a "debate."

The teaching of evolution has long been difficult in the United States. Now a national movement has emerged to promote the teaching of Intelligent Design in schools.

The issue has famously surfaced in a courtroom in Dover, Pa., where a school board is requiring students to hear a statement about Intelligent Design in a biology class - and parents mindful of the Constitution's church/state separation have sued the board.

In the interest of fairness, perhaps the president's speechwriters should take him seriously when they have him say that schools should be open-minded and teach all points of view. So far, however, the curriculum has not encompassed one obvious point of view: Malignant Design.

Unlike Intelligent Design, for which the evidence is zero, malignant design has tons of empirical evidence, much more than Darwinian evolution, by some criteria: the world's cruelty. Be that as it may, the background of the current evolution/intelligent design controversy is the widespread rejection of science, a phenomenon with deep roots in American history that has been cynically exploited for narrow political gain during the last quarter-century. Intelligent Design raises the question whether it is intelligent to disregard scientific evidence about matters of supreme importance to the nation and world - like global warming.

An old-fashioned conservative would believe in the value of Enlightenment ideals - rationality, critical analysis, freedom of speech, freedom of inquiry - and would try to adapt them to a modern society. The Founding Fathers, children of the Enlightenment, championed those ideals and took pains to create a Constitution that espoused religious freedom yet separated church and state. The United States, despite the occasional messianism of its leaders, isn't a theocracy.

In our time, the Bush administration's hostility to scientific inquiry puts the world at risk. Environmental catastrophe, whether you think the world has been developing only since Genesis or for eons, is far too serious to ignore. In preparation for the G8 summit this past summer, the scientific academies of all G8 nations (including the US National Academy of Sciences), joined by those of China, India and Brazil, called on the leaders of the rich countries to take urgent action to head off global warming.

"The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify prompt action," their statement said. "It is vital that all nations identify cost-effective steps that they can take now, to contribute to substantial and long-term reduction in net global greenhouse gas emissions."

In its lead editorial, The Financial Times endorsed this "clarion call," while observing: "There is, however, one holdout, and unfortunately it is to be found in the White House where George W. Bush insists we still do not know enough about this literally world-changing phenomenon."

Dismissal of scientific evidence on matters of survival, in keeping with Bush's scientific judgment, is routine. A few months earlier, at the 2005 annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, leading US climate researchers released "the most compelling evidence yet" that human activities are responsible for global warming, according to The Financial Times. They predicted major climatic effects, including severe reductions in water supplies in regions that rely on rivers fed by melting snow and glaciers.

Other prominent researchers at the same session reported evidence that the melting of Arctic and Greenland ice sheets is causing changes in the sea's salinity balance that threaten "to shut down the Ocean Conveyor Belt, which transfers heat from the tropics toward the polar regions through currents such as the Gulf Stream." Such changes might bring significant temperature reduction to northern Europe.

Like the statement of the National Academies for the G8 summit, the release of "the most compelling evidence yet" received scant notice in the United States, despite the attention given in the same days to the implementation of the Kyoto protocols, with the most important government refusing to take part.

It is important to stress "government." The standard report that the United States stands almost alone in rejecting the Kyoto protocols is correct only if the phrase "United States" excludes its population, which strongly favours the Kyoto pact (73 per cent, according to a July poll by the Program on International Policy Attitudes).

Perhaps only the word "malignant" could describe a failure to acknowledge, much less address, the all-too-scientific issue of climate change. Thus the "moral clarity" of the Bush administration extends to its cavalier attitude toward the fate of our grandchildren.

Ethan_24 said...

that was an interesting article i came across - from Noam Chomsky...
anyhow i am pro intelligent design being taught - i dont see any issues here (evolution is full of assumptions and scientific errors...)

Cruella said...

There are millions and millions of pieces of evidence supporting evolution. Now I'll accept that there are some periods of evolutionary history for which the fossil record is incomplete. However there is no evidence whatsoever for creationism.

One theory has millions of pieces of evidence, the other has none at all. So one is science and the other should be filed under superstition and fairytale with the tooth fairy and santa claus.

Incidentally the arguement that the universe is so complex that it can't have occured on its own, some higher being must have created it is totally null and void. Who created the higher being, which must by definition be more complex and fantastical than the universe it created? It's just gibberish.

Creationism should be taught in the religious studies classroom, along with three-headed monsters guarding the gates of hell and cherubs on white clouds playing the harp. The history of religious belief is interesting. But it's not science.

Ethan_24 said...

An eminent British philosopher—a key champion of atheism for more than fifty years—announced late last year that he has come to believe that there really is a God, on account of the intelligent design of the universe and life forms.

Antony Flew, who became an atheist at 15, debated at Oxford in the 1950s. He promoted atheism through prestigious works such as his landmark 1984 book, The Presumption of Atheism.

His thesis was disarmingly simple: Most people assume that God exists, and therefore that the atheist must prove otherwise. Flew reversed the onus. He claimed that there is no evidence that God exists. Therefore, the religious believer must prove that there is a God.

Over time, Flew became a very successful atheist. Overall, he wrote ten books against belief in God, as well as many other works. His works were among the most widely reprinted in all of philosophy. One thing that helped him was that many people assumed, without really looking into it, that science evidence suggested that God does not exist.

So why did he change his mind when he was eighty-one years old? Not because he fears the eternal consequences of a lifetime spent promoting atheism. He insists that he still doesn’t believe in heaven or hell.

Rather, Flew was convinced by modern science findings. He was amazed by the language that is written into the DNA of every cell of each of our bodies. He said, “What I think the DNA material has done is show that intelligence must have been involved in getting these extraordinarily diverse elements together. The enormous complexity by which the results were achieved look to me like the work of intelligence.”

Flew discovered that a number of scientists and philosophers believe that the universe and life forms show scientific evidence of intelligent design—this is called the intelligent design hypothesis. At any rate, Flew began to think seriously about intelligent design in 2000. By 2003, he was actively corresponding with other philosophers about it.

Darwinism or Design?

The alternative to intelligent design is Darwinian evolution or Darwinism. According to Darwinism, life forms develop from amoeba to man by chance mutations, without any design or any need for God.

Flew put all the design arguments to Oxford scientist Richard Dawkins, who is well known not only for his defence of Darwinism but for the promotion of atheism on account of Darwinism.

And, according to Flew, Dawkins—an expert in Darwinian evolution—was not able to answer his objections based on intelligent design. Finally, in early 2004, Flew admitted to American Christian philosopher Gary Habermas that there must be a God. His change of mind became public later in the year, as the result of an interview released by the philosophy journal Philosophia Christi.

Flew makes very clear that he has not become a religious believer in any conventional sense. He thinks that God “… could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose.” In reality, he believes only that God created the universe.

But let’s not discount the importance of that admission. It means that Flew’s life—and yours and mine—have a meaning and purpose that go beyond our own feelings at any given time. We are here because God intended us to be here. That makes a difference as we confront the tangled problems of our lives.

The best-known Muslim author who writes on this fiercely controversial topic is Dr. Harun Yahya. He has written several books that address divine design in nature, notably Evolution Deceit (Istanbul: Arastirma, 2002) and Signs of God: Design in Nature (Istanbul: Global Publishing, 2001). As Yahya notes in his works, modern science knows vastly more today than in past centuries about the intricate details of life. And the more we know, the less likely any atheistic explanation seems.

Turkish Philosopher: Atheism “Mere Irrationality and Ignorance”

Do you have enough faith to be an atheist? Can you look at the marvelous designs of nature and conclude that it all happened by chance? If so, you are part of a shrinking, if stubborn, minority. There has been a steep, widely reported, decline in atheism worldwide.

According to Paul M. Zulehner, a European sociologist of religion, “True atheists in Europe have become an infinitesimally small group. There are not enough of them to be used for sociological research.” And Europe, after all, is hardly noted for its piety. A key reason given is precisely the one that convinced Flew, the growing evidence from science that makes atheism unlikely.

Another reason he gives is that many people embraced atheism in the twentieth century because they hoped for a humanly-based system that would prevent the wrongs often done in the name of religion. But atheistic regimes like communism and Nazism outdid, in every category of wrong, the regimes where most rulers or leaders were religious.

Harun Yahya recently told United Press International, “Atheism, which people have tried for hundreds of years as ‘the ways of reason and science,’ is proving to be mere irrationality and ignorance.” For example, evolution alone, without intelligence, can hardly account for the fact that “a single cell can carry more data than all the volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica put together” (Insight on the News, March 14, 2005).

Yahya even predicts, in Evolution Deceit, that “…the 21st century will be a historical-turning point when people will generally comprehend the divine realities and be led in crowds to God, the only Absolute Being”

Cruella said...

Well that's a lot of info there. Two things though:

1) I still don't see the answer to the question: If God's so amazing that she created the universe - who created God?

2) So one guy converted from atheism to a sort of theism. Thousands go the other way every day. On average children of two religious parents are 50% atheist, one religious parent 25% atheist and two atheist parents 100% atheist in the UK right now. We're taking over...

Ethan_24 said...

I beg to differ:
1. God by definition cannot be created, if God is The Creator, The Everlasting..The Eternal then He (He/She I mean no Gender as God doesnt have a gender)has always been - I can hear you say "ooo how can that be" - well its - I guess - perfectly plausable for you to think that the Universe has been in existance forever (if you dont exactly agree with the Big bang/crunch whatever) so why not believe in this higher force as being The Eternal.

one attempt to answer your dialemma would be to consider a puppeteer / puppet. the puppet has strings attached - it moves when the pupetter moves, what i am trying to get at is that we are bound by laws - however, we cant start presuming that the pupeteer is also bound by the same laws (i.e. has strings attached too and someone is controlling him/her)...

As for evidence in Gods existence - its EVERYWHERE to be seen. Our position in the solar system, composition of air, amount of water etc etc if any of these balances were off we'd be done for!

Ethan_24 said...

On the question of evolution - that we and all life forms evolved from fishes or tadpoles - it doesnt add up (the maths)....
heres a simple Q:
What is the expected probability for chance to spell the phrase—‘the theory of evolution’?

This phrase by chance would involve the random selection and sequencing of letters and spaces in the correct order. Each letter from the alphabet plus one space (totaling 27 possible selections) has one chance in 27 of being selected. There are 20 letters plus 3 spaces in the phrase—‘the theory of evolution’. Therefore ‘chance’ will, on the average, spell the given phrase correctly only once in (27)23 outcomes!!

This computes to only one success in a mind boggling 8.3 hundred quadrillion, quadrillion attempts (8.3x1032) (gasp!). Suppose ‘chance’ uses a machine which removes, records and replaces all the letters randomly at the fantastic speed of one billion per microsecond (one quadrillion per second)! On average the phrase would happen once in 25 billion years by this random method. If, as evolutionists would have us believe, the earth has been in existence for approximately 5 billion years, then ‘chance’ could take five times this time to spell out its own success, even at this phenomenal rate of experimentation. And this phrase is infinitely simpler than the smallest life form, and children of average intelligence could perform this same spelling task within a minute or so.

Finally on the issue of the growth of Atheism:
Globally - i think youll find its Islam...heres the facts:

United States statisticians David Barrett and Todd Johnson count one in three of the world's 6.28 billion humans as Christians (2.1 billion). One in five (1.3 billion) are Muslims; 13.5 percent are Hindus (849 million); and 5.9 percent are Buddhists (371 million).

Almost 15 percent (938 million) are non-religious and atheists, but their annual growth rates of 0.8 and 0.2 percent lag well behind the world's population growth rate of 1.2 percent.

Muslims record the fastest annual growth rate at 2.1 percent followed by Hindus at 1.5 percent. Christianity continues to grow, but only by 1.3 percent - just slightly faster than the world population growth. The number of Buddhists is rising by 1 percent annually.

Cruella said...

I don't believe that the universe "just exists", I believe it evolved, I have millions of pieces of evidence, from the fossil record and from the relationships between modern species and families. Where did this God of yours come from, the arguement that she "just exists" is pretty similar to the pro-tooth-fairy arguement...

As for the likelihood of typing the right sentence, ditto. The likelihood of that sentence just appearing is much higher than the likelihood of a person, capable of typing that sentence just appearing. The likelihood of such a person just appearing is, in turn, much higher than the likelihood of an almighty creator capable of making such a person just appearing. You never get out of the circular arguement...

Ethan_24 said...

..."universe evolved"..from where? and from what - was it always in existance ? (then i see no difference in claiming God has always been in existance).

On Fossils - I have seen variations within a specie - we get that happening even today - but there is no definitive evidence for cross-specie evolution?(to my knowledge)... as for mutations - dont most mutations that occur lead to "worse off" situations e.g. downs syndrome - in some cases - yes beneficial - but in most cases not! clearly doesnt fit with survival of the fittest theory.

Cruella said...

From nothing, yes, evolved from nothing. Just a big bang.

As for cross-species evolution, I presume you mean across orders? Cross-species would indicate for example that you couldn't see evidence for the way chimps evolved from monkeys. I assume you don't mean that. For cross-order evolution, look at the duck-billed platypus: technically an early mammal, it displays many signs of reptile-like anatomy. Thus offering a possible route for evolution from reptiles to mammals.

One thing you might like to read is this:,13026,1559743,00.html

Ethan_24 said...

Thanks for that cruella - i myself was originally a Roman Catholic and so fully appreciate the problems plagued by the "bible" and science. Ill agree with you on one point, the bible is a work of fiction. However, I have not given up on God completely, I have for the last few years now since at uni been studying Islam whilst at university in Rome. The more I am reading the more I am being convinced this has to be the word of God. I have yet to find a scientific fact that has been described in this text that has proven incompatible with todays findings...for a book that was revealed 1500yrs ago it has left me thinking...deeply.

I have a recorded interview of Richard Dawkins. By the advancement of science especially in the field of genetics and biology, natural selection as a mean for evolution became hard to defend. The complex sturcture of the DNA was not even imaginable under a simple microscope that was present in the time when Darwin proposed this theory. So the scientests resorted to a new concept called mutation. When Richard Dawkin was asked that if he could account for or present any positive affects of mutation, he was speechless. He could not say even a single word. This is because the radioactive rays damage the valuable data from the DNA and a creature becomes a freak of nature. A picture of cow was shown which had an extra leg(moreover like a lump of uncontrolable flesh) near its head.

Many people who support the thoery have been unable to explain the unusual nature, structure and capabilites of many living beings present in the nature. If the evolutionests claim chance for changes, what were the chances for the creation of an eye. Those who know the complex structure of the eye would also know that millions of reations take place from taking the image on the retina to the brain in which it appears invertly.This all happens in less then 20th of a second. It is obvious that an uncompleted eye would be useless. How can any supporter of the theory account for this? This is just one of the many answers which are left unanswered.

I am happy to believe (and i think most people would agree) that evolution on a micro scale is perfectly plausable - people do chance between environments, but on a macro scale - it doesnt add up.

Cruella said...

How strange that you accept the bible as a work of fiction, yet you also accept the existance of God who presumably has the power to correct it. Rather mean of God to give us such a duff book and still expect us to believe in her. The Qu'ran is also full of contradictions.

Evolution may be open to debate as to the details of micro and macro evolution but religion has NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER. There is no "miracle" God is even supposed to have performed that can't be explained simply through nature and science. And I'm sorry but the arguement that because lots of people believe it the onus is on scientists to disprove it is nonsense. The onus is on religious leaders who are making a fortune keeping their followers in poverty to justify their behaviour.

Ethan_24 said...

...I think we will have to agree to disagree... i can see this dragging on for eons!
It may be worth reading a book I came across by a French surgeon, Dr Maurice Bucallie titled: "The Bible, the Quran and Science".

Your point is valid on why we have a "duff" book around - Quran also makes this claim - saying its a "consolidation" of what came before - i would be ineterested in seeing the contradictions you mention? I have come across alot of material by orientalists that have been pretty comprehensively debunked by the likes of Dr Zakir Naik (Islamic Research Foundation) - hes well worth listening to.


Cruella said...

Contradictions in the bible? Lets start with the two creation stories... The four gospels all differ massively, the "thou shalt not kill" and God sending a great flood to wipe out everyone she doesn't like...

Now while we're on the subject where is one single positive piece of evidence for creationism?

Ethan_24 said...

No i was talking about contradictions in the Quran you mention, since muslims claim this to be the absolute word of God, and free of error/contradiction. Infact, God himself states:
"This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than
GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a
fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from
the Lord of the universe. If they say, "He fabricated it,"
say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite
whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
So at the very foundation of a muslims belief is that the Quran is divine, without error or contradiction - given this is found to be true then it is clear evidence for the existence of God.

Many people have tried to find faults/error etc through either (a)misinterpretation of arabic (b)misreadings/quotes.

Infact God challenges mankind to produce a "verse" similar to that revealed:

Say, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together
in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never
produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance
they lent one another." [17:88]

(before you google "Quran Contradictions", its probably worth reading the rebuttals (of which there are MANY on

I am not here to preach as I myself am at a crossroads in my faith - but I dont think you can have such a blinkered view of religion per see based on your own experiances with Christianity.

At the end of the day Darwin theory is just that, a theory, and theorys change.

Cruella said...

The details of evolutionary theory change all the time. No-one with half a brain entertains the idea that we might not have evolved from animals.

I'm not asking you to preach. I'm asking you to offer one single piece of evidence for creationism. And you can't. Because there isn't any. Because its hocus-pocus...

for the record, however, and to demonstrate that what I write is always based on fact... Here's a whole web-site of Qu'ranic contradictions:

Ethan_24 said...

It is strange for you to use material prepared by evangelicals yet to constantly refute them?
The site you have given has claims that are not new - IF YOU HAD BOTHERED TO CHECK THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE CLAIMS BEFOREHAND rather than make these allegations it would have been better than tanyhow heres a selection of the o simply give knee jerk responses from surfing the net. EVERY SINGLE allegations made in their site (and repeated on many other anti-islamic sites) have BEEN EXPLAINED COMPREHENSIVLEY - I can almost gurantee that you probably didnt bother to check out the claims made for yourself:
On the issue of the sun setting in a lake (LOL - may i remind you it was Arab astronomers who pioneered much of modern astronomy):
Before we start, we have to first of all know that the Noble Quran does contain Divine Figurative Speech and Parables in it, as I documented many of It in good details, and it does contain speech that has to be taken literally such as the Divine Scientific Claims about how GOD Almighty Created things. In this article, we will examine whether certain Noble Verses were meant to be Figurative Speech or Literal One.

Let us look at the following Noble Verses from the Noble Quran. Please pay close attention to the bolded and underlined parts.

Let us look at Noble Verses 18:83-110:

83. They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain [or Dhul-qarnain]. Say, 'I will rehearse to you something of his story.'
84. Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends.
85. One (such) way he followed,
86. Until, when he reached ("balagha" doesn't mean literal arrival. See Noble Verses 6:19, 12:22, 18:61, 18:86, 18:90, 18:93, 24:59, 28:14, 37:102, 46:15 in the next section below. "adraka" or "yudrik" mean literal arrival or reaching as also shown in the next section below) the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: 'O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.'
87. He said: 'Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall he be sent back to his Lord; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard-of (before).
88. But whoever believes, and works righteousness,- he shall have a goodly reward, and easy will be his task as We order it by our Command.'
89. Then followed he (another) way,
90. Until, when he came (balagha....not literal. See the next section) to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun.
91. (He left them) as they were: We completely understood what was before him.
92. Then followed he (another) way,
93. Until, when he reached (balagha.....not literal. See the next section) (a tract) between two mountains, he found, beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word.
94. They said: 'O Zul-qarnain! the Gog and Magog (People) do great mischief on earth: shall we then render thee tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between us and them?'
95. He said: '(The power) in which my Lord has established me is better (than tribute): Help me therefore with strength (and labour): I will erect a strong barrier between you and them:
96. Bring me blocks of iron.' At length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountain-sides, He said, 'Blow (with your bellows)' Then, when he had made it (red) as fire, he said: 'Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead.'
97. Thus were they made powerless to scale it or to dig through it.
98. He said: 'This is a mercy from my Lord: But when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true.'
99. On that day We shall leave them to surge like waves on one another: the trumpet will be blown, and We shall collect them all together.
100. And We shall present Hell that day for Unbelievers to see, all spread out,-
101. (Unbelievers) whose eyes had been under a veil from remembrance of Me, and who had been unable even to hear.

There are several points and proofs to notice here:

1- The sun had always risen from the east and set in the west in a constant circular motion. To our human perspective, the sun had always rose from the east, and set in the west, and then goes under the earth to rise back from the east and so on.

2- The sun could not physically set on a lake or Spring, because that area of water could not have space or hole under it where the sun would go through it to then go under the earth so it would rise back up again from the east.

3- Not a single Muslim scholar interpreted this Noble Verse as the SUN SETTING INSIDE THE Murky spring water.

4- On the contrary in point #3, the Muslim scholars were the first to recognize earth as a spherical globe.

5- If the verses were to be taken literally, then the sun would have to set in the west, and would have to then rise back from the west, and then set in the east and then rise back from the east and so on.

6- If we take the above Noble Verses LITERALLY, then this means that the sun would have to bounce back and forth between the west and the east.

7- While the Noble Verses above don't give specific timing on how long it took Zul-Qarnayn to roam through the lands, but people back then were believed to do a lot of traveling on foot. While they didn't have the convenient and time-saving transportation that we have today, but nonetheless, they did travel through the lands without a problem. They were very physical in their life styles and they were able to build so much resistance against tiredness.

8- Clearly, the setting of the sun, is a figurative speech (see examples of Noble Verses) indicating that he reached a town with a spring or lake in it, and he meditated through the beautiful view of the setting of the sun on that town.

9- Some might say that the Noble Verse meant to say that the sun set on a place or through a hole near that Spring. In this case, this interpretation had refuted their "Literal Speech" interpretation, because they now had NULLIFIED their point and fixed position about the sun setting exactly in that murky lake or spring. Since they now agree that it doesn't NECESSARILY mean that the sun literally set on the water, then the "setting through a hole near the water" claim is only an interpretation without clear cut certainty and proofs. See the sections below regarding the mentioned Iron Gates (only mentioned in the Noble Quran and no where else) were indeed found, and see the Scientific and Divine Miracles in the Noble Quran along with the modern scientific proofs confirming their Truthfulness.

Having established point #9, we now can indisputably say that the Speech in the above Noble Verses is Figurative and not Literal. Otherwise, we are left with the explanation of why the sun never rose from the west. Not even once.
2- "balagha" is metaphoric and "yudrik" is literal:

This section is divided into the following sub-sections:

1- Balagha is not literal.

2- Yudrik and tudrik are literal.

3- So why would GOD Almighty speak in such a complex and confusing way?

Let us look at the following ample Noble Verses to set the record clear once and for all regarding the two Arabic words "balagha" and "yudrik".

1- Balagha is not literal!

Let us look at the following Noble Verses:

"Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "God is witness between me and you; This Quran hath been revealed to me by inspiration, that I (Prophet Muhammad) may warn you and all whom it reaches (balagha). Can ye possibly bear witness that besides God there is another God?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the one God, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him." (The Noble Quran, 6:19)"

Here in this Noble Verse, the word balagha is referring to those men and women of mankind who will hear about the Noble Quran in their life.

Obviously, Prophet Muhammad is not alive today to "warn" anyone!

"Balagha" here is rather more symbolic and metaphoric!

"When Joseph attained (balagha) His full manhood, We gave him power and knowledge: thus do We reward those who do right. (The Noble Quran, 12:22)"

Notice, no specific age or range of age was given. "Balagha" here is rather a symbolic term that says that when Joseph became mature enough and grown enough, GOD Almighty then "gave him power and knowledge...." Nothing physical was touched or reached by "balagha" in this Noble Verse.

"But when the children among you come (balagha) of age, let them (also) ask for permission, as do those senior to them (in age): Thus does God make clear His Signs to you: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom. (The Noble Quran, 24:59)"

"When he reached (balagha) full age, and was firmly established (in life), We bestowed on him wisdom and knowledge: for thus do We reward those who do good. (The Noble Quran, 28:14)"

"Then, when (the son) reached (balagha) (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if God so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!" (The Noble Quran, 37:102)"

Notice again in these Noble Verses, no specific age or range of age was given. It is open, especially for Noble Verse 24:59, because it depends on the child's personality, gender, and the environment that he/she was raised in. These factors will determine when his/her parents will decide on when he/she has "grown up".

When the child is "grown up", then the rules would apply to him/her.

No age limitation or restriction was given here. Each child is different!

"But when they reached (balagha) the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel. (The Noble Quran, 18:61)"

"Until, when he reached (balagha) the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." (The Noble Quran, 18:86)"

"Until, when he came (balagha) to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun. (The Noble Quran, 18:90)"

These three Noble Verses are talking about physical places in unspecified locations.

"Until, when he reached (balagha) between two mountains, he found, beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word. (The Noble Quran, 18:93)"

Again, this Noble Verse is talking about Dul-Qarnayn reaching a random spot in a land where people lived in a land that expanded between two vast mountains. He didn't necessarily, at first, reach where they were living. Notice "he found, beneath them...." So Dhul-Qarnayn was some where up there on one of the mountains looking down at the village or the town or country side that the people lived in.

"We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents: In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches (balagha) the age of full strength and attains (balagha) forty years, he says, "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (The Noble Quran, 46:15)"

In this Noble Verse, Allah Almighty first Said that when the man reaches the full age (the same exact Arabic Words for in Noble Verses 12:22 and 28:14 (balagha ashuddah)), and then becomes 40 years old. While "balagha" here is used for the exact reaching of the age of 40, but the context that it was used in the Noble Verse is that when the man reaches his full age and reaches 40 years old and beyond, he will be more thankful to GOD Almighty and to his parents, because he will most probably be a father with growing children then, and he will appreciate the role that his parents played when they raised him, and the hardship that they went through from emotions (caring for him and worrying about him getting hurt) and physical hardship (his mother beast-feeding him in the middle of the night, and his father working hard to provide for him).

So even in this Noble Verse, "balagha" is used more symbolically than literally.

2- Yudrik and tudrik are literal!

Let us look at the following Noble Verses and set of Hadiths (Sayings of Prophet Muhammad):

"It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up (tudrik) the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (falak) (according to Law). (The Noble Quran, 36:40)"

"It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course (falak). (The Noble Quran, 21:33)"

The Prophet, peace be upon him, was asked if the sun and the moon would ever collide while they are rising and setting above the earth. Allah Almighty responded to them by Saying that neither the sun will ever catch up with the moon, nor will the moon ever catch up with the sun. On the contrary, each one of them is swimming in its own orbit (falak)! They are not on the same orbit (falak).

Of course, on Judgement Day, things will be different, and all of the stars and the planets will explode and collide with each others as Allah Almighty Said:

"The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it. (The Noble Quran, 21:104)"

"Nay! When the earth is pounded to powder, (The Noble Quran, 89:21)"

"And the earth is moved, and its mountains, and they are crushed to powder at one stroke, - (The Noble Quran, 69:14)"

It is predicted in the Noble Quran that the earth will be pounded with asteroids (a nuclear attack from outer space) before Judgement Day and its mountains will be leveled to a flat crushed sand.

"No vision can grasp (tudrik-hu) Him, but His grasp (yudrik) is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things. (The Noble Quran, 6:103)"

Here in this Noble Verse, the visions of GOD Almighty's creations can not see Him, but He, the Almighty, can see all. This is literal and not metaphoric.

""Wherever ye are, death will find you out (yudrikkumu), even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" If some good befalls them, they say, "This is from God"; but if evil, they say, "This is from thee" (O Prophet). Say: "All things are from God." But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact? (The Noble Quran, 4:78)"

Here in this Noble Verse, Allah Almighty is saying that no one can escape death! Again, this is literal and not metaphoric.

"He who forsakes his home in the cause of God, finds in the earth Many a refuge, wide and spacious: Should he die (yudrik-hu almawtu) as a refugee from home for God and His Apostle, His reward becomes due and sure with God: And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:100)"

Again, death in this Noble Verse is literal and not metaphoric.

There is no question that "yudrik" and "tudrik" are literal while "balagha" above is metaphoric!

3- Further proofs from the word "adraaka":

The Arabic word "adraaka", which means to come to complete comprehension or to fully know, is derived from the root word "idraak", which also the words "yudrik" and "tudrik" above are derived from. "idraak" literally means to reach the complete knowledge of or to reach the end of. Also, another root word that is equal to "idraak" is "adraka", which means the same thing.

Some examples of adraka:

1- George finally adraka (realized; comprehended; reached the reality of) that he was wrong!

2- When the lion adraka (got a hold of; reached) his prey, he killed it and began to eat it!

3- The American soldiers adrakoo (plural of adraka) Saddam Hussein's fox hole that he was hiding in, and they arrested him after that.

In the Arabic grammar, the word "balagha" can not be substituted in the above sentences, because it would be grammatically wrong. "balagha" is not literal.

1- I can't say the lion balagha his prey when I am trying to say that he hunted it down.

2- I can't say that the American soldiers "balaghoo" (plural of balagha) Saddam Hussein when I am referring to an actual physical confrontation and arrest.

3- I can't say that George "balagha" that he was wrong.


Same thing with Noble Verses 18:86, 18:90, 18:93 above about the rising and setting of the sun. Because Allah Almighty used the word "balagha" in all of them and not "adraka" or any word derived from it such as "yudrik", then it is quite clear that the speech is metaphoric and not literal.

That is why Allah Almighty used the word "tudrik", not balagha, in Noble Verse 36:40 above when He addressed the question about the sun and the moon ever colliding with each others!

Colliding is a physical event, not symbolic!

Again, I renew my challenge:

If the sun literally set in a murky lake or sea or ocean, then this means that it would have to stay inside that body of water for the night and rise the next morning from the WEST, not the EAST!

Have the sun ever risen from the west? No!

Let us look at the following Noble verses:

"And what will make thee realise (adraaka) what the Sure Reality is? (The Noble Quran, 69:3)"

"And what will explain to thee (adraaka) what Hell-Fire is? (The Noble Quran, 74:27)"

"And what will explain to thee(adraaka) what is the Day of Sorting out? (The Noble Quran, 77:14)"

"Again, what will explain to thee (adraaka) what the Day of Judgment is? (The Noble Quran, 82:18)"

"And what will explain to thee (adraaka) what the (Day) of Noise and Clamour is? (The Noble Quran, 101:3)"

In these Noble Verses, Allah Almighty is referring to the the literal knowledge about the Day of Judgement , its timing and the details of events that will take place in it. The Prophet, peace be upon him, was asked several times about the Day of Judgement and it will come. Allah Almighty responded by saying that only Him, the Almighty, Know when Judgement Day will come, and what the details of it will be. Notice how "adraaka" is used for literal events and not metaphoric ones.

"Day! Surely the record of the wicked is (preserved) in Sijjin. And what will explain to thee (adraaka) what Sijjin is? (There is) a Register (fully) inscribed. Woe, that Day, to those that deny- (The Noble Quran, 83:7-10)"

"Day, verily the record of the Righteous is (preserved) in 'Illiyin. And what will explain to thee (adraaka) what 'Illiyun is? (There is) a Register (fully) inscribed, (The Noble Quran, 83:18-20)"

In these Noble Verses, Allah Almighty is talking about the actual records that keep track of every person's deeds. Allah Almighty further said in the Noble Quran:

"Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it. (The Noble Quran, 99:7-8)"

He, the Almighty, also said:

"In whatever business thou mayest be, and whatever portion thou mayest be reciting from the Quran,- and whatever deed ye (mankind) may be doing,- We are witnesses thereof when ye are deeply engrossed therein. Nor is hidden from thy Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom on the earth or in heaven. And not the least and not the greatest of these things but are recorded in a clear record. (The Noble Quran, 10:61)"

"There is no moving creature on earth but its sustenance dependeth on God: He knoweth the time and place of its definite abode and its temporary deposit: All is in a clear Record. (The Noble Quran, 11:6)"

"Knowest thou not that God knows all that is in heaven and on earth? Indeed it is all in a Record, and that is easy for God. (The Noble Quran, 22:70)"

"Nor is there aught of the unseen, in heaven or earth, but is (recorded) in a clear record. (The Noble Quran, 27:75)"

"The Unbelievers say, "Never to us will come the Hour": Say, "Nay! but most surely, by my Lord, it will come upon you;- by Him Who knows the unseen,- from Whom is not hidden the least little atom in the heavens or on earth: Nor is there anything less than that, or greater, but is in the Record Perspicuous: (The Noble Quran, 34:3)"

"And the Earth will shine with the Glory of its Lord: the Record (of Deeds) will be placed (open); the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward and a just decision pronounced between them; and they will not be wronged (in the least). (The Noble Quran, 39:69)"

"Every matter, small and great, is on record. (The Noble Quran, 54:53)"

"No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence: That is truly easy for God: (The Noble Quran, 57:22)"

"Then he that will be given his Record in his right hand will say: "Ah here! Read ye my Record! (The Noble Quran, 69:19)"

"And he that will be given his Record in his left hand, will say: "Ah! Would that my Record had not been given to me! (The Noble Quran, 69:25)"

"And all things have We preserved on record. (The Noble Quran, 78:29)"

Further more with "adraaka":

"By the Sky and the Night-Visitant (therein);- And what will explain to thee (adraaka) what the Night-Visitant is?- (It is) the Star of piercing brightness;- There is no soul but has a protector over it. Now let man but think from what he is created! (The Noble Quran, 86:1-5)"

"And shown him the two highways? But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep. And what will explain to thee (adraaka) the path that is steep?- (It is:) freeing the bondman; Or the giving of food in a day of privation. To the orphan with claims of relationship, Or to the indigent (down) in the dust. Then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patience, (constancy, and self-restraint), and enjoin deeds of kindness and compassion. Such are the Companions of the Right Hand. But those who reject Our Signs, they are the (unhappy) Companions of the Left Hand. On them will be Fire vaulted over (all round). (The Noble Quran, 90:10-20)"

"We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power: And what will explain to thee (adraaka) what the night of power is? The Night of Power is better than a thousand months. Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by God's permission, on every errand: Peace!...This until the rise of morn! (The Noble Quran, 97:1-5)" This is a blessed day during the Fasting Month of Ramadan when the Noble Quran was first revealed to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

"But he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) light,- Will have his home in a (bottomless) Pit. And what will explain to thee (adraaka) what this is? (It is) a Fire Blazing fiercely! (The Noble Quran, 101:8-12)"

"Woe to every (kind of) scandal-monger and-backbiter, Who pileth up wealth and layeth it by, Thinking that his wealth would make him last for ever! By no means! He will be sure to be thrown into That which Breaks to Pieces, And what will explain to thee (adraaka) That which Breaks to Pieces? (It is) the Fire of (the Wrath of) God kindled (to a blaze), The which doth mount (Right) to the Hearts: It shall be made into a vault over them, In columns outstretched. (The Noble Quran, 104:1-9)"

Notice again in these Noble Verses and in all of the Noble Verses above that used the Noble Word "adraaka", Allah Almighty used "adraaka" in literal sense. The details of Hell Fire, Judgement Day, the Records of Deeds, the Night of Power, etc..., all of these are literal events and objects that GOD Almighty Created for and against Mankind.

There is no question that "adraaka", like "yudrik" and "tudrik", is literal and not metaphoric or symbolic!

4- So why would GOD Almighty speak in such a complex and confusing way?

Because the Noble Quran is complexly poetical (poetry usually contains statements in it that contain exaggeration and sentences that are not always to be taken literally), and because Allah Almighty Spoke with Mankind in all times and all places in the Noble Quran, the above Noble Verses that talk about the rising and setting of the sun are simply speaking to people who had no knowledge about astronomy. The Noble Verses are, instead, addressing the people's perspectives and the way they saw things. That is why their words, such as "balagha" and "sababa" (means), are metaphorical, because they were addressing the people's perspectives and covering the story in a brief and poetical manner.

And because GOD Almighty is Truthful and Divine in the Noble Quran, He carefully Chose the correct words when He talked about incidents that involved the "balagha", "yudrik" and "tudrik". Those incidents that were poetical and metaphoric, He Chose "balagha" for them, while the ones that were literal, He Chose "yudrik" and "tudrik".

All Glory and Praise are due to Him!

Also, Arabic is a very complex, artistic and poetical language by nature! A single word can mean a host of meanings. The art and beauty of Arabic comes in how a person constructs and puts together words to form a sentence or paragraph. The art and creativity in the style and poetry are what determine the strength and beauty of the sentence or poem.

That is why the Noble Quran is extremely difficult to understand sometimes, even by the fluent and professional Arabic speakers. That is why Muslims always say that the translations of the Noble Quran do it absolutely no justice, because the poetry and complexity of language-art are completely compromised in the translation. What the English reader, for instance, is left with when reading the English Noble Quran, is the subject that the Noble Verses are talking about. But he/she doesn't see the beautiful and complex stylistic and linguistic Divine Miracle that the Arabic text carries in it.

At any rate, Allah Almighty Chose for the Noble Quran to be Difficult to comprehend, and to be quite a challenge to interpret and translate, because:

1- He Chose to have the Miracle of the Noble Quran be an ever lasting one by living in the text of the Holy Book Itself.

2- To demonstrate Its Divinity to the Arabs back then, who were very experienced/mature, fluent and also addicted to poetry, along with the Arabic-speaking people today, and to challenge them and to show them that certainly the Noble Quran is not just an average everyday book. It is indeed a Divine Miracle, proving that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is indeed a Truthful and real Prophet.

I apologize for the repetition, but I have no choice but to, again, renew my challenge:

If the sun literally set in a murky lake or sea or ocean, then this means that it would have to stay inside that body of water for the night and rise the next morning from the WEST, not the EAST!

Have the sun ever risen from the west? No!

Also, as I demonstrated in the "The Miracles and Prophecies of the Noble Quran which prove its Divinity" section below, Allah Almighty also spoke to us today and addressed us in our Scientific Language that we understand.

3- The Prophecies of the Iron Gates did come true, and the Iron Gates were found!

Now i am not going to go through each and every claim made - you should VISIT THIS SITE BEFORE in future:

Ethan_24 said...

I thought it may also be of interest for you to read the statements of EMINENT EMBRYOLOGISTS who have converted to islam after reading descriptions of human formation:

All other rebuttals to alleged erros are given here:

Enjoy! THIS is MY proof for the existence of GOD.

Cruella said...

Well that website is offering a huge cash prize to anyone who can prove them wrong. Enjoy spending it.

And I don't see any evidence for the existence of God. I mean the existence of a book about her is all very well but then I've read Harry Potter but I don't believe in teenage wizards and dragon-monsters. I mean real evidence. Scientific evidence. There isn't any!!

The fact that you keep coming back with longer and longer more and more convoluted answers to my very simple points makes it sound like you're angry about the obvious holes in your own belief system. This is a classic symptom of a person who has been brainwashed. Step outside into the real world Ethan, the air's lovely...!!