tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post8101639212971455929..comments2023-08-14T16:35:49.756+01:00Comments on Cruella-blog: The Trouble With Science: Line-by-LineCruellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03446805038957924958noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-81626468943656338392010-10-18T01:35:59.713+01:002010-10-18T01:35:59.713+01:00James you are reading things in to what I write th...James you are reading things in to what I write that just are not there. I have never had a bad time at church. I went sometimes to a Sunday School as a child and it was awesome fun. I have also as an adult been to church for carol concerts, classical music and so on and enjoyed it. You clearly want to believe that there is some aspect to my experience of church that has affected me negatively but on the contrary my problem with Christianity is simply the complete lack of evidence for any of it. Aside from the odd dull sermon my experience of church has been very pleasurable. But you are about to provide some so I wait with baited breath.Cruellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03446805038957924958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-47125575103717651662010-10-17T14:32:45.695+01:002010-10-17T14:32:45.695+01:00I can, I'm just not convinced that you could p...I can, I'm just not convinced that you could process it adequately. Not because you lack the intelligence but because your church background (which you are so furtive about) has obviously created such a huge bias that you wouldn't act on the evidence.James Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09547928186048033271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-43147818243677780532010-09-22T22:05:42.537+01:002010-09-22T22:05:42.537+01:00I just don't think that you can assign a relig...I just don't think that you can assign a religion to a child. Any more than you can have a communist child or a fascist child.<br /><br />And these things make no difference. Either you can or cannot produce evidence for the existence of a Christian God. So far I'm guessing: not.Cruellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03446805038957924958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-9294713545693031012010-09-22T21:46:04.425+01:002010-09-22T21:46:04.425+01:00No I'm afraid we are not ready to proceed just...No I'm afraid we are not ready to proceed just yet Kate. In order for me to see where you're going wrong I need to know what emotions might be behind your rationale. Your answer "I've been an atheist for the whole of my ADULT life James" is heavily frontloaded with the admission that you have a Christian background in childhood, and the frontloading suggests that you know it is a factor in your thinking. So I'm going to need a bit more if you'd be so kind.<br /><br />1) Were your parents Christians?<br /><br />2) Did you attend church or Sunday school (or both) as a youngster?<br /><br />3) Did your church background have any negative 'authoritarian' or 'punitive' connotations that impacted your childhood?<br /><br />4) When did you become an atheist and what changed your mind?<br /><br />Sorry if that's pressing on open wounds, but we will save an awful lot of time and extraneous dialogue once I get some background info.James Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09547928186048033271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-63718962192436838602010-09-22T20:52:59.208+01:002010-09-22T20:52:59.208+01:00I've been an atheist for the whole of my adult...I've been an atheist for the whole of my adult life James. You may proceed...Cruellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03446805038957924958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-16849864397141819512010-09-22T20:22:20.428+01:002010-09-22T20:22:20.428+01:00Ok Kate, but before I do I just need you to answer...Ok Kate, but before I do I just need you to answer one question, so I can infer what you will likely already know/feel....<br /><br />Regarding Christianity, you will be in one of three positions; you are either a Christian, a non-Christian who has never called herself a Christian, or a non-Christian who once did but has relinquished her faith. Which of the last two is it? <br /><br />Thanks.James Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09547928186048033271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-77895630639981768622010-09-20T13:30:00.105+01:002010-09-20T13:30:00.105+01:00"every single atheistic attempt to counter a ..."every single atheistic attempt to counter a Christian argument is easily shown to be flawed, ill-conceived or factually wrong"<br /><br />I'm afraid I'm not familiar with what exactly you consider to be a "christian argument". I'm very willing to engage but I don't know of any. I suppose the only real"christian" arguments I've ever heard are these:<br /><br />(1) "But I read it in a book". Which isn't a real argument. I've read Harry Potter but I don't believe in teenage wizzards, cos it's just a book.<br /><br />(2) "But I have a really strong feeling about it". Well good, I had a really strong feeling about a horse in the Grand National a few years back and the stupid thing fell over on the second jump and had to be shot.<br /><br />If you have some better arguments than these for the existence of a christian god then let me know. I can't argue with a void.Cruellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03446805038957924958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-21270027390273368652010-09-19T23:11:38.265+01:002010-09-19T23:11:38.265+01:00I hope you don't think I'm being too hard ...I hope you don't think I'm being too hard on you Kate - it's just that if you write articles that show an obvious ridicule of theism (which I have no problem with, and understand) but are then encouraged to back up your points against someone who is very bright and educated it doesn't do you any favours to demonstrate an unwillingess to engage, because it rather suggests an underlying lack of confidence in your own position.James Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09547928186048033271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-69679621339768062722010-09-19T23:05:47.248+01:002010-09-19T23:05:47.248+01:00Judging by your unwillingness to engage with the p...Judging by your unwillingness to engage with the points I've made, I don't have much confidence in your ability to assess the evidence. I would have thought the evidence that every single atheistic attempt to counter a Christian argument is easily shown to be flawed, ill-conceived or factually wrong would at least make you sit up and take notice, but somehow that fact is easily overlooked. <br /><br />It's very easy to knock down strawmen, but let's not pretend that that strengthens your case - when atheists come up against smart theists their position is always shown to be weak.James Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09547928186048033271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-67634221860566428362010-09-19T03:55:09.042+01:002010-09-19T03:55:09.042+01:00Oh James... "I say there is plenty of evidenc...Oh James... "I say there is plenty of evidence for God"<br /><br />Great - well do pop some of that evidence up here then. I'm dying to see it. Really. I could use a laugh.Cruellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03446805038957924958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-14162545809705912262010-09-18T22:38:42.144+01:002010-09-18T22:38:42.144+01:00Thanks for the reply Kate. You wrote the article ...Thanks for the reply Kate. You wrote the article saying "But the God question is over, solved, years ago. The answer is "no". Next." - so I was just enquiring why you think this when clearly the question is far from solved. But ok, I'll work with the few crumbs you gave me - namely...<br /><br />"I don't need to find flaws in theism because there is no evidence for it."<br /><br />The most I can really say about this is that it is a proprietary statement based only on the immediacy of your own perceptions. I say there is plenty of evidence for God - so from a philosophical starting point you can't simply universalise the 'no evidence' claim when much of the world disagrees with you. <br /><br />The main flaw in such a claim is this. Our abilities for assessing whether or not God exists and is active in people’s lives are much less competent than we think, so when someone says there is no evidence for God all they really mean is that they have never experienced Him. They have shown that they do not understand how the majority of our views and knowledge of that kind is formed. The only thing they can really say with a strong conviction is that their experiences have forced them to lower the probability of their believing in God - we can’t say there is no evidence or there is certain evidence because the entire gamut of evidential acquisition through the vast space of the historical and the socio-personal is about accumulating ideas and concepts through probability. <br /><br />Thus it stands to reason that one person only ever sparsely samples the network of all possible routes into such knowledge, so to stridently declare that there is no evidence for God is not good thinking because the premium placed on one’s own comparably tiny experiential protocols against the vast search space of all other experiential protocols is both parochial and irrational.<br /><br />So Kate I can't even take your statement "I don't need to find flaws in theism because there is no evidence for it" because not only does the above undermine your position, but evidence doesn't come in a conceptual vacuum - a lot depends on one's own ability to interpret it and formulate coherent worldviews.<br /><br />I'm not one of those Christians who equivocates and maintains that we can't be certain God exists, or that we need to live our lives always wondering - I maintain that once we start to get to grips with the complexity of the subject we can know God exists, and that I am as certain that He does exist as I am anything else. I think all the equivocating has led to unnecessary doubts and uncertainties (although as secondary emotions both of these can be useful tools of cognition).<br /> <br />The only caveat I would elicit in your mind is that being sure God exists is a complex mental position and cannot be validated with overly simplistic worldviews - because God is a personality and like all personalities, we are always exploring new aspects of them. So the certainty is bound up in one's whole outlook and ability to assimilate a coherent worldview that takes the narrative-intense structures of God's output into every other subject.<br /><br />JamesJames Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09547928186048033271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-4644273486156757812010-09-18T20:03:35.992+01:002010-09-18T20:03:35.992+01:00Ha ha ha. Very drole. I said I might respond to yo...Ha ha ha. Very drole. I said I might respond to your points if I have time. I don't need to find flaws in theism because there is no evidence for it. If you have some evidence for theism share it with us all please but if not there is nothing for me to refute...Cruellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03446805038957924958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-64146261581297707092010-09-18T19:48:06.794+01:002010-09-18T19:48:06.794+01:00Posit your three best flaws with theism, Kate, and...Posit your three best flaws with theism, Kate, and we'll have a look. I promise I will give you a decent response.<br /><br />JamesJames Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09547928186048033271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-84452851387485232472010-09-08T22:31:26.674+01:002010-09-08T22:31:26.674+01:00Actually James I think you've misunderstood - ...Actually James I think you've misunderstood - my piece is not in any way intended to be a full and clear explanation of the flaws in theism. It was a criticism of that article and the decision of the Independent on Sunday to publish it.<br /><br />You're welcome to post up your comments and views here, I will respond if I have time.Cruellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03446805038957924958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8248707.post-17580337973751434542010-09-06T22:42:53.950+01:002010-09-06T22:42:53.950+01:00I'm afraid Kate you've picked a very bad a...I'm afraid Kate you've picked a very bad article and used it as a strawman attack on theism. If you really want to give your neurons a bit of a philosophical warm-up stretch and debate this with someone who can easily show any argument you have against Christianity to be flawed and ill-conceived then do say won't you, and I'll be happy to oblige!<br /><br />Best wishes<br /><br />JamesJames Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09547928186048033271noreply@blogger.com